Finding Equitable Companies to Work For
Steven: So today we have. Interesting. Talk about finding equitable companies to work for. So some advice into how to find these companies and some advice around what to do within your current workplace. We also have in the chat and ability, just to, if you drop a question, we’ll be able to answer it throughout the call.
And then in addition feel free in the chat type in where you’re calling from. So we check out.
Awesome. And as you’re chatting and typing that into the chat welcome to our space for those of you who are new organizations called QTBIPOC Design. We are a nonprofit organization that empowers queer by creatives to thrive and succeed within the digital design industry. And so we host programming, including UX, where you’re at courses to help educate United States
we’ll do today is we’ll just go into the talk have some small announcements for us and we’ll stick around for any additional questions that folks might have. And so. Today, the presentation is on finding equity, equitable companies to work for. And I just wanna first start off with this understanding of signs of not being in an equitable environment.
And so we see that when you’re not in an equitable environment impact to the workplace, right? You’re oftentimes tense, anxious on the edge. You see a lot of pay disparities happening across the spectrum of folks within the organization, absenteeism and silent quitting, where people become disconnected, lack of boundaries where people’s lives, personal lives become blurred with workplace.
And then ironically, sometimes as folks are burning through the midnight oil feelings of isolation, As a part of it. And so we also see impacts to community in the sense of the community of folks around you within the workplace. In addition to increased turnover and increased transfer requests to maybe different offices.
We see also a sign of employees, not for, for other people into the organization and also little to no work with DEI happening to elevate our historically marginalized communities within the workplace. And then lastly, especially as we talk about work workplace, we see that the. Inequitable environments also largely impact growth and propensity to learn, be promoted.
And so we see a lot of first signs at the top disconnect leaders managers. We also see a struggle for underrepresented voices to take positions within management and leadership, again, because of a lack of community. We see lack of support. And then, which is interesting. We’re just doing some research before this and, and a notion around the feedback that is given to one another within the workplace tends to start skewing negatively as a part of inequitable environment.
So all in all, not good, not the best and. Opportunities for growth . And so signs when you’re in an equitable environment, we see kind of this flip, right, where first of all, impact workplace, we see this as a much more joyous type of environment. People are present with one another and there is equity across compensation as well.
And we also see support being provided, especially for underrepresented community. When it comes to impact to the community, very opposite from this connection, we see people coming together helping to support one another, a strong sense of community, and also equal representation across various levels of work in leadership, and lastly, impact to growth.
We also see when folks are happy, thriving working with one another, right? It becomes so much easier to grow and help uplift one another. And so we see focus on growth, clarity, and alignment of vision. And so I’m sure you have the question now of, well, if it’s so good, right. To have equitable environment, why don’t we have equitable environments?
well it’s because we see existing power dynamics, right. Being a big part of the incentivization of people to not take action. Right. So folks who come from identities of power backgrounds of privilege, right. Or we just see quite broadly the financial incentive model within the workplace being skewed towards the wrong things and also lack of awareness just across the board reinforcing.
Again, unfortunate inequitable ways of operating homogenous, managerial C suite people who are interested inable. Exactly. Yep. So we also see people who hold right. These positions of power, these identities of power, but also claimed privileges of power who frankly don’t wanna lose it. and so it’s very hard to find an equitable environment when we have folks scrambling to hold onto the.
And so one good definition of equity is also this definition around power dynamics, right? Equity is quite simply defined as a shift in power dynamics. And why this is really important is because if we ask somebody a, is this equitable, you could quite simply replace the word equitable with, Hey, is this shifting power dynamics, right?
And so oftentimes what this helps us to better understand are these models, right? Where let’s say we’re just donating 10 hours, right. A year to a soup kitchen as a part of a volunteer program within the workplace. Right. Is this shifting power dynamics necessarily? Not really. Right. What about when we quite simply Place people right in marketing material as a part of promoting diverse hires within the workplace, is this ultimately shifting paradynamics right for people who are in the workplace itself.
And most of the time when equity is stated, it is often defined pretty incorrectly equity. Isn’t just relocating resource, but it’s quite simply shifting power dynamics. And so power dynamics based on different contexts, right? Or defined either as money, power, influence, time, attention, resources. It could be very different things depending on the context that you are in.
And so within the workplace, it could be power, right? It could be time, time to decide, right. Our decision factor, which is power influence, right. And so the question to ask quite simply, when people are stating that they’re doing something equitable or quite simply yourself asking if this is an equitable environment, simply ask yourself, is power dynamics being challenged or shifted, or is it just simply reinforcing existing norms?
And so we’ll go through three phases of a job searching, interviewing, working, just to highlight a few things, opportunities to just be more aware of within the process. And so. The idea is when you search for a job, there’s an opportunity to find equitable organizations as you start interviewing for a job there’s opportunities to determine whether or not an organization is equitable.
And then lastly, as you are working within the jobs, some signifiers of how to work within the confines of building equity within the workplace.
And so let’s start with searching, right? A few pieces of advice. First is looking beyond LinkedIn, right? Expanding your search beyond these social media platforms and looking at specifically organizations that highlight marginalized identities, historically marginalized voices. We can start seeing.
Right. These organizations who are contributing and being an active player within collaboration with organizations, right? So sometimes with our organizations, we post job postings within our slack channel. And for the most part, what we also do is we talk with many of the recruiters to see and suss out some job roles and descriptions that might be good for our community.
In addition, it might also be really great idea to connect with folks within community, largely the community beyond right. A workplace or the workplace at the war, looking for to just get a better sense of how is it, right. And so why that’s really important is there are all these reading websites, right?
Glassdoor good places to work. And at the end of the day, all of these can be ultimately. Became a fine and can be adjusted in a way that helps to favor an organization. Now, granted, if an organization was horrendously, abysmally bad, right? You really can’t hide behind a lot of people running negative reviews, but oftentimes there are scenarios, which, for example and we’ll talk a little bit more where a company may dangle promotions may dangle other incentives to their employees so that they will do favorable as a part of these labels and designations.
Looking at the details. So as we are searching for jobs one thing to better understand is this notion of intent versus impact, right? So often a lot of people, when they look for equitable companies, they will quite simply ask companies, Hey, are you equitable? When in fact that is not a really great question to ask it comes and stems out of UX testing, right?
What people say is not ultimately what people do, right? And so when people say, oh, I’m being equitable, they may or may not necessarily be engaging in practices that reinforce equity, right. They may have a notion of just participating in a social event and may have a, an understanding that for them, it, you know, at attending a social event could be a part and playing.
But again, as we ask Kate, does this shift power dynamics, we can start to see whether it does or not. And we’ll go into detail and I’ll have a few question. That you can ask in your next interview to better understand these organizations. Look at the detail of the organizations, right? The core value and DEI charters.
So organizations are also really quick to publish it because they want to look very equitable, very aware. And one of the things to also look at are some of the ways in which they are incentivizing performance, incentivizing behavior within our organization. And again, as we center existing structures, especially profit structures, right.
We aren’t necessarily making it human centered human first. And lastly, Really great tip is just going to the LinkedIn of the company organization. Right. And then just scouring through a bunch of the people who work there already and who hold leadership positions. And so as you SCO through it, sometimes interestingly enough, you might find that you’re connected with somebody.
And a small tip is to reach out to mutual connections and see if they can connect you with whoever you are. Mutually connect. As a way to kind of get your foot into some of these organizations. Lastly, we talked a little bit about engaging with community, right? And so one thing to think about are engaging within the workplace itself.
Other employees outside, maybe as an interview sometimes getting more interviews can be a little bit scary, right. But one thing to know you can also, you are also empowered to ask for specific meetings, ask for specific interviews with certain identities and we sometimes forget that. Yeah. And sometimes asking, Hey, can I talk to this person?
Right. If you are telling me, oh yeah, we have a whole team of black designers. That’s part of it. You can request, Hey. Yeah. I’d love to connect with these people that you are talking about and berating, right. To me. And you can get a better sense and they should be able to set that up with you. Right. And sometimes in our fear of not getting the job, we’re like, okay, let me just go through the interviews as fast as possible.
But on the flip side, think about it this way. If you had a connection with this request interview and it went really, really well, right. Think about how that can actually help rally right. And help to reinforce your application as a whole. Right. So it’s just one of those things that is so hard, especially when you’re in the weeds, you’re just going through the motion.
But again, I’ll just reiterate, you are empowered to dictate who you want to meet. That’s in addition to maybe who they’re suggesting that may help to play a role in your interview process. And then lastly, if it’s in person, it’s actually very easy, but most interviews now have shifted to digital realm.
But one thing to note that if you are in person, what’s really great to just consider and think about is just how do you observe the culture, right? Are people talking to one another, are people engaging with one another, right. Usually gives you a better understanding. And so we talked a little bit about these designations, right?
And one thing to note that all of these are all annual feed. And so a lot of these things, these designations, even B Corp are quite expensive. If we take a look at the best places to work, just even being eligible for the designation, you have to pay out of pocket. If you are between right 10 to 99 employees, about $1,000 a year, Right.
And so, which is crazy, right? Because you see all of these designations slapped onto all these companies and they’re like, oh yeah, this is the best, you know, these institutions also need to make money. And so one thing to know, just because an organization has, these are estimations doesn’t necessarily mean they’re equitable and organizations that don’t have these destinations doesn’t necessarily mean that they.
Inequitable. And so in my organization specifically one of the, for profit initiatives, we actually do not engage with B Corp certification specifically because B Corp certification really doesn’t need much the organization doesn’t hold your business accountable. And quite simply it is just taking away money that we can actually engage with and use the money towards community building work.
Depending on how many employees you have in an organization can cost anywhere from 10,000 to, or sorry, 1000 to $10,000 for B Corp certification. But what’s crazy right, is that we see that designation with many organizations and we’re like, oh yeah, you know, they must be doing good. But if you actually look at these labels and how they charge it’s.
Quite a lucrative business which is nuts because the same thing also goes to food labeling to be certified organic, you have to pay organic label industry to get that certification. And so and some of our clients that we work with are beauty companies and for them to get the organic designation for some of their products on, of being organic, we also
right. Next is in terms of searching. There’s a bunch of really great resources and a big one that I highly recommend is diversified tech. And so diversified tech, you can go and take a look at these different organizations that have job postings, communities, slack groups, discord channels. And what I will say is you don’t necessarily have to immerse yourself knee deep across all of these spaces, but just put yourself in there.
Right. And see if you can just have the pulse of what’s just happening. And at the end of the day You’ll never know. Right. Where support can come through. Only looking at B Corp for a period of time. No idea. This is helpful. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s a big reason of why we our organization doesn’t do B Corp certification because it’s just money out of our pocket.
And the B Corp certification does not necessarily hold businesses with B Corp certifications accountable. Yeah. Yeah. And so advice here is just going back to being a part of different organizations, take a look, add yourself to different slack channels and threads. And yes, definitely understand some of the channels with a lot of things happening can get very overwhelming very quickly.
And it’s just one of those things that maybe you just have to mute a of channels. Right. And
so you specifically. When it comes to interviewing, right? So this was a little bit of the search. And again, just to summarize the search, I would say the most important thing, or the few most important thing is one, just be aware of, again, the labels, they can all be manipulated, right? And people can just pay it out of the pocket.
One of my old ad agencies actually withheld bonuses, unless we had voted positively to be the best places to work while I was in San Diego. And so all of the employees put in really favorable reviews, understanding that this was an aspect to get your bonus promotion. Yeah. So it’s just one of those things.
And these organizations like best places to work will say, well, we use a third party, we put the survey out there, but the way in which the organization will gamify it and say to everyone, like, this is what you need to put ends up. Kind defeating the purpose, you know, which is nuts. Right. And then the best basis to work is based off of this third party survey that is sent out.
But the organization and how they disseminate the survey, it is totally up to them to be able to say, or, you know, reinforced anything, which is crazy. So they basically wanted the designation because they knew they were gonna get more hires. So they said if that happens, people will have more bonuses for the year.
Yeah. And then of course it was very toxic place to work. And then the last advice for the searching again, was just connecting with communities. And don’t be afraid to just reach out to folks with an organization and just ask like, Hey, just wanna learn more about this company. And. Through some of these intersections of identities or organizations based around intersections of identities, we can oftentimes be connected with people who can give us the real tea.
Yeah. And I also have a section at the end for just like the real tea, like the most important thing that I usually don’t share out. And so I’ll share that out at the very end going into the interviewing a few tips of advice. First one is be just yourself. This again, took me a long time to learn.
Oftentimes we as survivors of lots of trauma, we’re very good at code switching, right. We’re very good at manipulating ourselves even, and believing whatever we need to believe, right. To survive and thrive. And we just have to recognize that it is a survival mechanism. Right. But it is not ultimately how we sustain ourselves.
And so as you apply for jobs really, you know, I, I read this quote that was really beautiful. LinkedIn, moving away from finding people who just tolerate you, but towards people who celebrate and uplift you. Right. And so I think it’s just really important to underscore. Sometimes if we try so hard to code switch, to be in a certain environment, sometimes we’re just quite simply putting ourselves in these environments that ultimately don’t uplift us.
And while we may reduce right, the number of places that we are eligible for, because we just don’t vibe with certain organizations, I think it just helps to filter out. And we don’t organizations for you. Now. I want to underscore. One thing that is really important that we, as an organization instill and uplift is also this factor of safety.
Right. And so we also acknowledge and understand that many people within our community, the queer bipo space that sometimes we just need money to get by. And that’s totally okay. But we also recognize that we also have community members who have more than enough privilege. Right. But also continue to code, switch as a part of a massing world.
And so again, there’s no right or wrong, but ultimately it’s a balance of keeping yourself safe. And also, how are you going into environments uplift you in the process? Right. Asking the right questions. So we’ll go through a little bit in a slide, but basically they are questions around how to prod at intent versus impact.
Right. But I will just quickly cover meeting community. As a part of the interview process like, is this repeating. This is repeating again. I must have accidentally deleted , but it’s okay. We’ll go for the other slides. Oh, working construction for year before switching UX code switching. That’s how I survived.
Yeah. You know, we’re so good at code switching, like, like magicians, you know, but recognize that is not sustainable. But sometimes. To code, switch to survive is totally understandable. Right. I, I want to make that designation especially for us in, you know, environments, whether we’re raised in a conservative household or conservative neighborhood, or we’re just in unsafe spaces sometimes, right?
It is important that sometimes we also code switch as a part of survival and safety. So don’t feel as though you have to, you’re not being true and honest to yourself, but sometimes where we like to just underscore is as soon as we start building the privilege to be able to not code switch, I think that’s something to ponder and think about just where that sits right with the values.
And sometimes we don’t recognize, right. What’s tricky part. Sometimes we don’t recognize how we just go into being a cog as a part of this machine. Right. That is so detrimental and unhealthy to our communities ourselves. And it’s just one of those things that you know, I have other colleagues, other friends who make anti plenty, plenty of money, but yet they subject themselves to very, very awful environments because they are what we call in the industry, the golden S and I think it’s just at the end of the day it’s a combination too, right.
Of where you just sit within the spectrum of finances within your life, right? Same here, co conservative every time. Yeah. So if one has to code, switch and be safe to. Keep yourself safe. Keep yourself alive, keep yourself sane, recognize that. Right. But again, it is very taxing and unsustainable. But also I just wanna touch on one more thing before you get into the questions.
This concept of code switching also, as we teach ourselves to believe certain things, right. When we are so good at just telling ourselves something to the point that we just believe it, right. Sometimes we have to check in with ourselves and ask ourselves, are we with ourselves in this moment? Right.
Am I being truthful to, and the space that we hold for ourselves, I think we don’t have to write code switch for ourselves. And this is very a really difficult part. As a part of my work, I also do some coaching with. By creatives and a big part is this notion of, you know, we’re really good at just teaching ourselves and believing anything.
And we just have to sometimes just give ourselves compassion and allow ourselves to unwind and just be to ourselves. The person you wanna is. Right, right. Yeah. The tough one. Tough one. yeah. So going back to this intent versus impact some. Again, you cannot just ask a company. Hey, are you equitable?
They’re gonna be, yeah, sure. Of course. Are you, you know, how’s your DEI GE I good. Yeah. It’s amazing.
Underrepresented communities. Oh yeah. Cool. You know, I love I Don ball slay. But you know, you really have to ask the questions and you really have to ask the questions that go beyond that. Right. Which is what are you actually doing? Right. And so some questions right. Is one how, like what’s the percentage of people on the team, on my creative team that are women that are people of color that are queer.
Right. And what is the percentage of them? Right. I think sometimes we forget that there are quantifications of. Equity, right. That results in set type of environment. Right. And you have to ask yourself what that is, pay transparency, right? You can ask companies, what is your what is your policy or how you’re transparent with pay across the organization?
Right. What I really, really love actually, and diversified tech they have this job board where they actually survey and assess these organizations and they write about how many people are within each kind of different subgroups of identities. Now how accurate they are. I can’t attest because here they’re saying they have 16 people in tech, seven are women and 10 are people of color.
And it’s just it’s I think, yeah, it’s just one of those things that you just have to just. It’s hard just to say, like take the word. Oh, yeah, but I did the math. I was like totally wrong. I was like, some of the women could be people of color . I was like, I know I did the math too, but it’s just one of those things that it’s like, you have 10 people of color in tech right out of 16, which is 50%.
And that is actually very rare. And so it’s just one of those things that, to me, like it’s a little bit of a, a flag that I wanna prod a little bit into. Maybe it’s a very equitable organization. Right. But it’s one of those things that, especially when the numbers are very, I would say very too good to be true.
It’s something that it might be worth exploring. Maybe they emitted right. Leadership as a part of this. And these are just people who are more of the actual team members. Right. One thing to highlight is collaboration with external orgs and community. So quite simply you can ask organizations, Hey, what communities and what external organizations are you working with as a part of the DEI charters, and why that’s really important is imagine, okay, what’s crazy is organizations are like, we’re gonna determine our own DEI and whether we’re successful or not.
Right. If we’re impacting, for example, the community, right. And just one of those things that it’s like, can you, how do I, how do I say this? It’s like people who are measuring their own success of what they’re doing. I did, I put it right, but it’s basically, they’re the. Sticking out the ruler and going, this is what we did, but in fact, there are organizations out there, right.
Working with different marginalized groups and identities, that can be a better attestation of how this workplace, right. This organization shows up. Right. And oftentimes is really important to ask what does a collaboration look like? Is it a regular thing, right? Or is it just, they’re just dumping money in the direction.
And then one more question to ask could be for yourself, potentially, what are specific benefits offered to op underrepresented identities, right? Is there financial benefits are their health benefits? And then sometimes asking about the benefits package around healthcare, for example, can give you a much more revealing look into an organization than what people are saying on the outside.
Right? So. The thing to just like summate, this kind of slide is the aspect of equity has real world kind of output. Right. And that’s what you wanna ask companies about rather than, Hey, do you like Asian people? Yeah. I like Asian people, right. yeah. Anyone have questions on this? I think this was at least for myself the most impactful interview skill as a part of better understanding organizations.
Yes. Hi, Marlene. So I’ve seen questions like this, and I’ve tried to do them in interviews before. How do you, how do you say this discern when to push back when they give you a vague answer and when to kind of like, take that vague answer as a, ah, you’re not actually doing anything, right? Because sometimes it’s like the company’s not actually doing something.
Sometimes the person that you’re hiring doesn’t know or it’s above them or you, those sorts, like for me, I’ve never been able to pick up on those social cues during that part of the interview, when you do ask them like hard-hitting questions. Yeah. Yeah. So I would first start with, so here’s a trick that I’ve learned is.
It’s a concept of throwing a rock in a pond. Right. And seeing how it ripples. And so first off you wanna start with something a little softer. It’s like your little pebble, right before you throw a gigantic Boulder into the, like the lake, you just wanna throw a little, you know, a pebble there. And sometimes I do that as a part of entering new spaces to see, you know, how they, how they react to certain topics.
Right. And so I’m usually in a lot of spaces with a lot of executives and sometimes I’ll throw the nugget of just talking about first myself. Right. And then I just see how they resonate or pick some of that up. Right. Or, you know, things I had been engaging with volunteer work, for example that could be an easy way where you start like a, like a soft technique could be starting to talk about what you’re passionate about.
Right. What work that you do, and then you start facilitating and understanding, okay, is this person picking up? Is this person, you know, Creating a safe space where we can talk about these deeper, really important questions. Right. If you’re talking about, well, I, you know, to the interviewer, you’re like, you know, I do this work volunteering with CU pop design, which is for queer bipo, you know, creatives.
And they’re like, oh my God, I love that. Tell me more. You’re like, okay, like, let’s go into it. Right. And that’s sometimes like an interesting technique, what I call like tossing a little pebble right into it. Because if they dismiss it, you’re like, well, I was just sharing with you what I do. Right. But it’s really up to the other people in terms of how they wanna hook and pull it in.
Sometimes you might just be asking, you know, people who are just really not interested in this stuff. And I think it tells you two things, right. Maybe it’s not as important in the organization. And then it’s not important for them and depending on who they are to you, right. If they’re your manager, Or they’re your direct colleague?
I think it helps to kind of teach a little bit more about the environment that you’re about to head into. Does that help? Yes. That helps. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then fast for right. Casually drop queer trans into something, nature reaction, generally force surprises. Just good pep.
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes I’ll just throw out there, like they’re like, yeah, what’d you do this weekend, volunteering supporting, you know, this organization that the queer identities, you can make it like so soft and just really subtle, but you know, the people who matter pick that up and they run with it.
Right. And it’s just one of those things that you just again, I think one tool that we always talk about in our organization is safety. And a big part of, again, this like notion of just like testing the waters is ultimately to identify safe spaces, to talk about these topics, right. If they cannot hold space for you, and if they’re not going to be open to you, what’s the point of even engaging, right.
You’re just simply putting yourself up to help educate for free and also to put yourself up for potential as well. Yeah. Yeah. Any other questions?
Good points. Okay. Also relevant information, identity, history, voice. So reads. Yeah. That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. Sometimes putting that in your resume. Sometimes people pick it up. A people don’t read resumes nowadays. It’s and so you, and just didn’t even read the, they have all these like automated machines that just like read all of the, the stuff and it’s just yeah, sometimes yeah, we have to recognize resumes, just getting us to like that next stage, the next point.
Right. And then it kind off there to us. And on your social, LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. We had Nikita Washington who is a black trans UX designer who shared about putting her identities of being black and trans within her LinkedIn helped to kind of weed out potential people who. Might not be a great fit again, I wanna underscore, like that might not be the case for everyone.
Right. But in the case that you find yourself in a position where you can play around a little bit with some of these things to ultimately find spaces that uplift you, it might be worth exploring. Yeah. But of course we recognize and also honor people who must shift shift as a part of surviving within our communities.
As a part of working, I would say we always talk about community, right? And a few tips when you’re in the workplace about how to instill equity, right? First just find the right community, find the right people who are your cheerleaders, your champions. These are gonna be your most important people in org, right?
They’re gonna be your pillars. They’re gonna be your shining light, beacons of hope. Right. And when things go wrong, they are here to support you. Potentially it could also be through DEI initiatives or also local chapters. Maybe there are different offices where you can connect and also find people too.
We talk a little bit about the initiatives, then we’ll go a little more into some of the stuff. But what I will say is again, one note with working, you also aren’t limited, right? To just people within your workplace, right? You can go outside of your workplace, go into community, right. And why communities like this, that you’re attending is so important is because we, you know, we don’t have a relationship with your employers.
We don’t have a relationship with your workplace. Right. And so you can bring yourself as you are into our space. And there’s no way that, you know we or there’s no way that what you share in this space will transcend into those spaces. Right. And so our slack channel again is just for queer byproduct folks.
And so see it as a safe space that we are cultivating. So you can have some of those conversations that you might not have on LinkedIn, for example, right. Or on Twitter. And then lastly, in terms of connecting with other organizations it is really, really important for companies to collaborate with external organizations, especially as they want to establish accountability, solidarity and ways of truly measuring their impact.
Right? How can organizations say they stand truly for the BI community, right? If they haven’t engaged at all with external communities or organizations, right. And these organizations have been working with communities all their lives, right. They have all the insights and everything. And sometimes these companies get a little bit egotistical of thinking, well, I, you know, I’m doing this work so I should know everything.
But in fact, it’s actually, you know, a privilege to be able to work with these organizational institutions who are doing these amazing stuff. Right. Yeah. So these are really fascinating slides. So when you enter a workplace and again, also assessing whether workplaces are uplifting you or not as a measure of equity, but also there’s some, we’ll have some tips of just sharing.
Just how to work with this is first of all, identifying pushback that exists within an organization, you know and pushback is quite simply the pushback against equity, establishing equity within organizations. This could be with the organization, it could be with ERGs employee resource groups with our organization.
It could be with certain individuals, right. And one thing to note, as you’re seeing this first, you, you know, you acknowledge that it is not a safe space, right. But also I think what’s great is you, you put words to what you’re sensing. Right. And so three kind of pillars. Gartner did a study on this, which is push back on the efforts, denial, disengagement derailing.
So they’d identify denial as folks who are unwilling to acknowledge. Right? So some examples in the instance, people say, I don’t see color I’m color line. like, I exist. I’m right here. Racism doesn’t exist unless we talk about it right. Or all lives matter. Right? So denying the existence of racism, denying the existence of, and pushing back against it, the next kind of pillar is disengagement.
So these are identified as unwillingness to support causes or initiatives. Some examples when people say, I don’t wanna say, or do the wrong thing, right. I don’t wanna be sad talking about these things. It’s a problem everywhere. So why do we have to solve it within our workplace? Right. And so a little bit of how it’s different from denial is that they’re quite simply stating how they don’t want to engage with it.
Right. They don’t deny the fact that it exists, but quite simply they are pushing back on being on putting effort, leveraging their resources into it. Right. And then the third part is derailing. So I would say across all of it, derailing is a little bit more the most semester one only because we see this.
So, so often, and what’s rooted into derailing is based on again, these power structures, right? Instill inequity that we’re not shifting away from. So the next so, and then these are usually hidden, right? People, people try to use these to warrant, not doing things, but in reality, the actual excuse points to the larger issues of inequitable systems.
Right? So an example, when somebody says, well, we focus on merit and competencies, why do we need specific roles, right. With X number of spots for black developers, right? How does this impact our bottom line? So we see this also, right, again and again, when people are like, well, di how is it gonna impact our sales?
Right. It has to look good for us. And what I love about the disability advocacy movement over the past few years, they’ve said, we don’t have to prove to you that we make you money. We don’t have to prove to you that we will ultimately impact your bottom line, right? Your margins, your sales, your.
Everything related to financial intake, right? Because at the end of the day, this is the right thing to do. I think that’s really powerful to put into words, right? We do this because this is the right thing to do. This is the human centered thing to do. This is the equitable thing to do, right? We don’t need to have money validating these things.
Right. And I think it was very poignant when disability advocates said this, because for example, accessibility, right? Accessibility for websites. For example, a lot of the times people are like, well, you know, these like people with low vision people who are blind, how much are they really of our bottom line, our margin.
Right. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. Right? Because this is the right thing to do. People deserve to be able to have access to. Experience why everybody else is taking part in. Right. And then last one, I don’t feel included and there’s no space specifically for me. And so sometimes we see there’s a lot of times with fragility, right?
The concept of fragility across different identities. And again, why derailing is so tough sometimes to discern is it looks like right. They, they, they want to support us, but they have these criteria that we have to fulfill. But I think what is so powerful is labeling this right. Saying actually this is a technique of derailing rather than truly uplifting and being for equity.
Yeah. Useful sign. Yeah. And sometimes this is really important to put into words, some of these things, because. The power of words, even through our limited addiction, right? In whatever language that we are conversing in articulating in, we need to put into words, things that we want to adjust. Right? So as you feel pushback, I mean, when you could put into words what it is that you can identify what you need to do, right.
Derailing when you see this happening, it is quite simply stepping away from the reinforced power structures. Right. Just saying, I’m not gonna play this game. Right. When you see disengagement happening, it’s quite simply identifying, oh, these people aren’t here to give me the support. Right. And then denial, these people just don’t believe this is happening.
Right. And with these three cases, you can start to identify, you know, again, based on the bandwidth that you have, if you are instituting DEI related activities within the workplace, what to focus on, right. Ding, ding, ding. Sometimes a lot of people, if they’re disengaged, if we’re doing work that is focused on derailing and aggregating people on why not to derail, we’re totally missing the point with the people around us.
Right? So this is ultimately to identify what’s happening so that what you put out there can be received in the best way. Cool. And so pushing back some things that are really important, it also took me years to learn. And I’ll just go through the first two first communicate and foster awareness.
So quite simply as we share our story, share our existence, share what we do, we can provide the story behind it. Right? So this is for people, again, for people who are denying it’s happening sometimes just fostering awareness of just ourselves, right. And our identity quite simply be the antidote for denial, right?
Which is fascinating and bringing people alongside with us to just simply do the work, right? Hey, come to this meeting with me, we can also start to foster things that help denial and also potentially disengagement, right? Inviting and building empathy, just inviting people into our space, but also this concept of how are we creating a safe space, right?
Sometimes as a part of disengagement, what we acknowledge are difficult conversations that people don’t want engage with. And to, for this is creating a safe space to have this conversation, right. And then lastly, this is the most important part addressing things communally oftentimes again, based on these power structures, right?
They want. A person in shiny armor to come out and go, I’m gonna save my community. I’m gonna do all this, right. But the systems that exist want this to happen because they want to identify who they can blame, who they can pinpoint and who they can antagonize and who they can push out. Right. And so why this is really difficult is especially as we talk about union organizing and union leaders, they’re often the first in line to get pushed out, get antagonized, get hurt.
And especially as we talked about where the purpose of community is, sometimes it’s really important to lean into community as a part of having let’s say we are a part of a BYC DEI group within the workplace, right? Your BYC DEI group can’t issue statements. And can’t address things within the larger workplace.
Right. And why this is really important is because nobody right. Will get identified and antagonized as a part of it. What are they gonna do? Fire all the bipo people. That’s not gonna look good. You know? So it’s just one of those things that sometimes we want to take action. But again, why this communal addressing is really important is ultimately it keeps us safe.
Right? Ultimately it keeps our community members safe. Right? Yes. Any questions there? And this took me a long time to learn because oftentimes right, we see all of these people doing social justice work, being put in the front center stage, but tell you the truth. You are the first to feel any. You know, and it’s very, very tough.
And at the end of the day, at least what I acknowledge is it’s not sustainable to do that, work all by yourself. And sometimes we have to recognize that it’s a little bit of our ego, too, right. We sometimes want to be praised. We want to be in the center of it. And sometimes as a part of getting rid of the ego, we can truly be open to true community work community, building work, community advocacy.
Right. And what does that community centered actions definitely takes more time, but it’s one of those things that if we do right by ourselves community, yes.
I don’t know if this is more of a subjective question and like, based on each person, but I’m kind of, how do I’m trying to find a way to articulate what I wanna say, but I guess like, as I’m looking for equitable companies and things of that nature, give me a second. Hold on to paint a scenario, right?
Yeah. Take a time. I found a thank you to paint a scenario. Let’s say I found a really dope, equitable company and like, you know, they put their money where their mouth is and like their, their overall lots of green flags. Right. But I’ve noticed that there are several people within that company, whether it’s HR, whether it’s a high manager, they are engaging in one of those tactics.
Right. Or maybe not just one, but like many people who are engaging in those tactics. Right. So while the policies might be correct, the people are not. And so like, I guess this is like, how would you handle it? Or, or like, how are we supposed to handle this as like, you know, people of color, like, should we obviously within capacity, but like, should we even engage in doing that emotional labor?
Or should we kind of like bow out and let hot mess? Like I think, yeah, but I know that that’s a subjective question, but I was just kind like, please, you know, Yeah, I could tell you my biggest learning is it has to start with observing our energy level. Right? If we can’t be honest with ourselves of how much energy we can give unconditionally first, it doesn’t matter.
Right. What we engage with at the end of the day, we’re just gonna be burned out and a quote. I love to go back again and again is we don’t have to set ourselves on fire to keep other people warm, but again, it’s not sustainable, right. To let ourselves on fire, like come here while I’m burning my flesh off.
Right. It’s not sustainable. And so so that’s a part of your question of asking, well, if should I engage or should I not? And the question is first, how much energy do I have to give? Do I have to give unconditionally first? Right. And if you don’t totally okay, you do, you protect yourself and then you come back in when you have stuff to give.
Right. And I think energetically. A lot of oftentimes people who are, oops, oopses, sorry, sorry. I have no idea where there’s a lot. Sometimes a lot of people within this work again, how do I articulate it? It’s a mix of ego, right? It’s kind of like ego overstepping our own capacity to acknowledge how much we have to give.
Right. We want to feel as though we are shepherding in change, but we don’t have the capacity to do at this time. Right. And then we put ourselves and over extend ourselves as a part of it. And so we have to call that out. Right. Yeah, take it, take it. And then also it’s just, what’s tough is in the space of social media it’s who can scream or who can be the most shocking, oftentimes right.
Gets the attention and. So much to, of the work that we do, we sometimes forget it is rooted in compassion. It is rooted in equity. It’s rooted in love and starting with ourselves. Right. The second question is if we start acknowledging people in leadership positions who engage with these practices, the simple answer I would give you is it always will come down to the person holding, right.
That power, whether or not they wanna shift it, right? If you don’t have power within an institution or space, ultimately, I mean, what you can do is you can convince people, right. Or the institutions or the people to shift the power dynamic. Right? But you, yourself cannot shepherd in what you do not own.
Right. That is really important to underscore. And when people are unwilling to bud at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter all this work that you put in, right. If they’re not willing to ultimately budge their own measure of equity to disperse it amongst other people, it’s not gonna shift, it’s not gonna shift, but again, it goes up to different tiers, right?
You can totally be comfortable going up to the director level. Right. And then shifting stuff there. And that brings you satisfaction. Wonderful. Right. But also it could be your proximity. Let’s say you’re a director level, right. It’s less around what the other directors are thinking, but then it goes levels above you.
Right. And so I think it’s really great start thinking just in terms of even this latter, what I would say is the best tip I can give you is your manager is gonna be a, make it or break for you. And if your manager is not centering equity within their work, Oh, it is really hard. it is really hard. And that’s one of the important people that’s going to not just dictate your future, but also teach you a lot of stuff.
Right. And so it’s one of those things that it’s, it’s more so look for the people that you want to surround yourself with, look for the people that you want to be with. Right. And sometimes what will happen is that these people, right, your managers and leaders will leave organizations and they’ll take people with them.
Right. And especially when they’re instituting equity and they’re creating very healthy work environments, wouldn’t you wanna follow them everywhere, right? You’re like, yeah, this is great. I’ll come with you. And so it’s one of those things that again, for a long time, I was chasing after people with the biggest resumes, right.
Who accomplished the most. And at the end of the day, I was just one chopping block away. And when I started surrounding myself with people that I really could see myself working, collaborating lifelong, these people, we still talk to, we’re still friends when they have jobs open, they’ll reach out to when I have jobs open, I’ll reach out to, it becomes this, this, this communal type of environment, right?
Yeah. Immediate leadership like direct supervisors. Exactly. Yeah. So last part of a talk will be just a Real Canty I’ll let , I’ll lay it down. A few things that I also took me a long time to learn was one, this concept of viral brands, right. And who’s gonna be in this workplace quite simply. Viral brands are gonna attract.
It’s gonna also attract people who have the biggest ego, right? Who want these bras other resumes. And this is just one thing to really, really, really take into heart is that this is gonna exist in this type of environment and unless these organizations, and unfortunately, none of these are really, truly to the extent of many other up and coming, smaller companies are Institute equity.
These organizations, oftentimes as you look at who they’re promoting, right? Who they’re uplifting, you see a lot of people who align with existing power structures, being the ones that are promoted, right? And so myself, I’ve worked with a handful of these viral brands everyone wants to work at. And what I will say is while some of them had.
Some of them did not have the brightest people some of them did have the brightest people so other contrary is not. Yeah. But I would say hardest working people. Sure. Right? Like some of that actually, no, no, I take that back. No people in nonprofit works fucking hard, so they do, they do people in nonprofit work hard.
What I will say is a lot of these instances, just with these viral brands there, I’ve never been at a viral brand, like a big brand, a namesake brand that haven’t had very bad egos. I’ve not worked with a single big brand that didn’t have huge. Yeah. Which a lot. Right. And. One thing to ask for is really ultimately with yourself, what are you looking for?
Right. And be honest with yourself. Right. And again, it’s totally okay. To be honest with yourself, but again, it’s this checkin, right? If you wanna make a shit ton of money and you wanna just like stock equity, all this stuff. Right? Sure. But are you willing to put yourself in, you know, environments that don’t uphold you?
Right. Are you looking for growth? Who are you looking for growth with? Right. And so oftentimes what is remissed is you may have really, really great, amazing people that you have yet to meet that you have yet to work with. That may be at brands that aren’t as, you know, glitzy and glammy and shiny as some of these brands.
Right. But they may help to accelerate your career tremendously. Right? And these institutions are very white centric, right? CIS hetero white centric. And especially when that is the norm, you know, you’re gonna face a lot of microaggressions. You’re gonna face a lot of instances when people aren’t leaning into and uplifting you more than their other counterparts because they see themselves in these other people.
Right. Is what say in you it’s like
so into even just some of the numbers, right? A lot of these organizations publish their DEI reports and if you actually pull the curtain. Back. I mean, there’s a lot of numbers. I’ll a little bit, so the very left, this is a 20, 20 census across the different ethnicities and race within the United States, right?
You can’t really have this across the world because different countries also track different ethnicities and race specific to their countries. So, but what we can track is just globally. If you have a product that’s going across the world, right. Who it’s gonna impact right. And so what is tough is, especially as we talk first, let’s focus on the us.
None of these larger organization institutions even match the percentages that we are given, right with the 20, 20 census specifically around black communities, specifically around Latinx communities. And let, hold on, move this so I can see the data. And also one thing to know. And we always talk about, this is also this need to disaggregate the Asian population.
Oftentimes the numbers will be really big, but it’s also severely underrepresenting identities within this Asian diaspora. Right? Sometimes you might have certain ethnicities specifically within tech. It could be certain south Asian identities, or it could be certain east Asian identities. Right. And then invisibility of many Southeast Asian identities, right.
Or Western Asian identities. And so I think the one thing to know is just taking a look at some of these numbers and just seeing where things stand, but also focusing on what is leadership. Right. So I’ve clicked leadership on a tab with apples. And so you see leadership, it’s like abysmal, right?
It’s quite abysmal with where things are at, right. Huge population of Asian representation. Right. But also like abysmal population of black, Hispanic folks snap was like the worst. The
If you look at men versus women, it’s 61% to 30%, but also if you look at Google, right. Global gender women to men is 64 to 35. So all in all, I would say the first part is, as we take a look at the numbers, this is the real tea, right. This is where things are at. Right. And usually public companies have to publish the EEO, which is the aggregation of different identities.
Within it granted again, Asia is such a big data quo, right? As we take a look at the global population. So this is the second part of that conversation, why this is so important is these are all global companies, right? Google, apple, et cetera. And if you are not representative of the global population, what are you really institutionalizing?
Right. And specifically around the prominence right. Of black population, we see Africa, the population within 2021 comprising of 17.4%. Right. And so if we are creating an organization that truly stands for not just with black populations within the United States globally, right. How can you say your global population when your leadership team is 4% black addressing 17, 4% of the global world, right?
It, it just doesn’t make any sense. And so it’s just one of those things that I think. I, I love turning to the world population because it puts things more into perspective. Right. We don’t see what the us census, right. A lot of immigrants departing and leaving because they face inequity. Right. And so what we see is just a snapshot of where things are at granted.
We also see white populations going down, but also we see because a lot of people are having interracial relationships as well. And so we see a lot of, to races trying to go off as well. But it’s, I think it’s the, what I would say is a look at the census and the will give you a better understanding of just where we should with representation across the whole.
Yeah. Cool. Okay, the next is performative DEI. So oftentimes a lot of organizations have DEI work, but it is perform. And so some questions really that dig in deep into this is asking questions around the impact of the DEI work that they’re doing, right? DEI work is not a social guy. Like it, it goes beyond that.
Right? For example, it goes into, are we providing equitable access to career opportunities, right? Leadership opportunities is pay equitable across the different identities, right? Are we promoting allyship within different identities and communities? Are we collaborating with external partners? Right. And how are we measuring our progress?
And what’s crazy is all of these have a profound impact right. With our communities, but yet a lot of DEI ends up being just social events sometimes. And, and this is really, I think this disconnection of DEI work that truly shifts, right. Again, power dynamics, financial dynamics, influence dynamics, right.
That is truly meaningful and that will resonate and stay around. But a lot of the performative DEI work, whether it’s for their marketing effort, social I think all of those are again, unsustainable because you keep doing them. Right. And you keep having communities be a part of and engaging with these.
Right. But they get nothing in return. They don’t see. Right. And so also performing DEI is not sustain. Yeah.
And so, as we talk about DEI, it’s performative aspect. Again, we talked a little bit about this, but what it helps instill sometimes unfortunately, of these DEI initiatives. They’re sometimes just for PR they’re sometimes for recruiting. Sometimes what they are is just extra labor, right? Being asked of our communities to show up, to create safe space for yourself and your peers, and it’s not being paid.
So you get to take on being a therapist and also kind of a, a manager, right. But you’re not being paid for it, which is crazy. And also you open up right. Potentially to have personal tax and retaliation as a part when you’re really, truly shifting a, moving the needle. And so across all of these, right, we see that sometimes performative DEI, not only stalls, real true effort and real work, but it actually hurts really painfully our community members.
And mostly, I would say the point with this is I think personally. Having DEI in a separate group while I think it’s really important, I don’t think takes away the impact and necessity of DEI being a part of everybody’s job. I don’t understand how you can have a department that focuses on DEI and then other people who play a role in hiring right.
Play a role in promotion for their people, and they are not engaging with DEI work. And so sometimes one thing to really underscore is the DEI initiatives within the workplace.
Is this a part of a segmented effort or is it a way to disseminate information to larger group? Yeah. Yeah. Any thoughts on this stuff? I know this is like a lot to unpack. Yes, Marlene. So, can you just like elaborate on that last statement you said of like disseminating information versus something else.
I am cognitively understand that. Ah, okay. I would say there’s a lot of purposes of a really strong DEI group, right. Where they can help to basically, as we, you know, go back a few slides, right. A really strong DEI group can play a role right. In addressing pay equity, providing resources for allyship, right.
Collaborating with external partners. And so a strong DEI group will be very, very strong at also helping to inform and educate their organization with how to be equitable themselves. Right. Rather than take on all the work. And so why that’s also important is again, DEI. Isn’t the group of like somebody else it’s everyone.
The intent there, the true intent that can make huge impact is the one that has lastly change across everyone. Yeah.
Got it. Thank you. Yes. Yeah.
This is like
Real Canty getting the most of your out of your workplace. And so oftentimes within the context of working with a lot of people, let me backtrack. I work a lot with coaching bipo creatives, and oftentimes when the work environment isn’t good things, aren’t going well, things aren’t equitable. You’re just like, Ugh.
Oftentimes I see individuals right going well. I have to. I have to have not like, you know, no job. I have to just cut this off completely from me. Right. And I think this trend of silent quitting is becoming popular is because it is a way in which we are regaining power back in the system. Right. Really thinking about this work, not just as we are just doing labor, but this reciprocal benefits that exist.
Right. And so as a part of really, I think what took me a lot of time to learn is asking yourself, how do I get the most out of the workplaces that I’m in? Right. And so we talked a lot about finding the right workplaces and you know, how to combat, identify pushback and also what to do to instill equity within the workplace.
But I think one big part of equity within the workplace is also just getting really our value out of the workplace. That we’re part. Right. And so. Let me see how I can articulate it. There are resources that are afforded to you, educational aspects mentorship aspects, and a big part of the work, not just only doing the work right, but is also taking from this organization and what they’re offering.
Right. And why this is important to underscore is I just see too often, queer bipo folks, bipo folks, just making it so easy for the organizations. Right. You put in all this labor, you’re the perfect employee. You’ve done everything. Right. And then as soon as anything is not going well, you’re like, okay, I must leave now.
So they got the best of you, right? and they didn’t have to work for your time at all. And I think why this is really important. Underscore is it’s just, how are you reentering yourself as a part of your work, right. Your value. And so with this is asking yourself, okay, am I just here to make sure that I have a paycheck, right.
So that I can find the right bridge for me to go into the next place. Right. Is it someplace where I can just focus on getting the right mentorship, right. Getting under the right people and getting that education and then I’m dipping out, right? Or is it quite simply, do I just need certain clients or just something right.
And then I need to go, but at the same time you can lay the groundwork for what’s coming up next. You just don’t have to call it quits without getting the most you’re being out of your book. Right. The workplace is already doing that with you. Why aren’t doing that for yourself, right? Some big insightful things, not all labor is created equal.
So why I underscore this, oftentimes a lot of us engage with DEI work, but especially when we’re in inequitable organizations, again, inequitable organizations don’t want our equity work. Right. Truly. And when you do all of this work with DEI stuff and you see your career stagnating, you’re not getting promoted.
You’re not doing all this again. They’re not focused and prioritizing that labor that you’re putting in. Right. They’re probably focused on people who make the people, you know, make the organization the most money. Right. They’re probably focused on people who can bring in the most deals. Right? Focus on people who are actually just duplicating and just doing the jobs that they’re asked to do.
Right. And so. This is really important to underscore, especially when we’re taking on, especially if it’s free labor. Right. Sometimes we have to ask ourselves if it’s a promotion, if we want to go up within our career, a real assessment, right? Like an honest assessment of where the company stands with, what work that we’re putting in.
Right. And sometimes we can be easy on ourselves. Right. For example, if it’s DEI work and we’re not an institution that honors it, we can go outside of it. Right. We can engage with either this organization or other many amazing organizations doing this work. Right. Which is independent of the workplace.
Right. So you don’t have to give them stuff that is not honoring you. But at the same time, maybe what you just focus on right within the workplace is just getting the job done, getting paid. And sometimes maybe that gets people promoted. It’s crazy. And so it’s just one of those things to think about, especially as you, again, the context of getting the most out of your workplace, what does that balance look like for you?
Oftentimes we self sabotage ourselves in getting this balance because we have so much fear, right? The fear, self sabotages, us and scarcity mindset. Right. And I think it’s really, Hmm. I think it, when I would say it’s for myself, it took me a long time to recognize this. And again, like it goes back to the first point that we talked about, right.
Where we can code shift, we can teach ourselves, we can tell ourselves anything. Right. And one thing that we have to be cognizant of is the instance, when we start code switching and taking on ideals and ideas, Of ourselves that is not the most healthy, that is not the most beneficial. Right. Just to have an always conversation with ourselves, right.
Ground your work and changes within safety of yourself in the community. So we talked a lot about that. Again, these are ultimatums, right? But at the end of the day, your safety, your ability to thrive is really important. Right? And so don’t feel as though you have to put yourself on the train track to save the train, we actually need to step away and as a whole situation.
Right. And be like, that change should have been there. We need to talk to larger powers at B. Right? There’s so many ways that we can pull about it is more conducive. And then lastly environments are not forever. So an organization that was once equitable. Is it always gonna be equitable, right. An organization that has not been equitable could be equitable.
Right. But again, we have to be honest with ourselves as a part of what we are experiencing validating our experiences, right. With compassion, with kindness and allow ourselves to be honest with ourselves. And I think that is really one of the most important things. If I were to have a lesson of today’s lecture is just ask yourself in moments in your life, right?
When have you been able to be the most yourself, have you to that, right? Where there practices that you did to just snap out of things and just be honest with yourself, right? That is gonna be your super. Yeah. And so whether it’s practices of, you know, just doing kind things for yourself, to a point where then you can unravel and be honest, right.
Or it’s a journaling practice or whatever it is that you need to be able to put yourself in that mindset, to be able to be honest with yourself, I think will give you the upper hand, especially in recognizing when spaces and institutions are not benefiting you. Yeah.
Don’t forget to ask yourself again, if it is as equitable or not, there’s a shift or reinforce power dynamics, really. I think really, really powerful. And then lastly, you’ll never be perfect. you can try to make the best predictions you can and people get to see you. But don’t take it upon yourself to be angry with yourself, or just be upset at yourself in the process, understand that you’re just trying your best, you know, to better navigate and all of this takes a ton of time to learn, to be in the work.
Yeah. Cool. So that’s the presentation. Any questions, anything,
hopefully this, this took me so long to learn. I feel like most people don’t break it down this simple, but again, it’s just one of those things that it took me just like vulnerability, to be honest, to recognize For the longest time, like I had been in situations, I just lied to myself. Right. I’m like, well, this is what you want.
So don’t forget, you have to do X, Y, Z so that you can accomplish B, C D you know, and that you have to take this, like beating have, do all this, do you? right. And also for people who have golden handcuffs, right. For especially people who cover marginalized identities who go into work environments make a ton of money, but then subject themselves to not really great behaviors.
I think one thing to reflect is also what is our overhead to exist in life, right? Is it worth, you know, buying all these lavish extravagant goods for the sake of our sanity within the workplace. Right. And so there’s so many things that it’s, it’s, it’s a big complex thing, right. And it’s not a one answer if it’s all, but at the end of the day, Ourselves, what serves us?
What honors us, what uplifts us and who’s doing that.
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